Tuesday, August 27, 2013

WHAT PATTERNS ARE FOR


“Christ! What are patterns for?” wails the distraught young heroine of Amy Lowell’s famous poem, Patterns.

Her question is hardly surprising.  Patterns have been with us from the very beginning:

Red dot patterns painted on the cave walls at El Castillo date back 40,000 years.

Star pattern from the ceiling of an ancient Egyptian tomb

Well, the world has waited long enough for the answer.

Lowell’s heroine yearned for passion and spontaneity, but found herself trapped in a formal world of patterns, from the designs on her brocaded gown and corset to the ornate garden paths which she paced, waiting for her lover to return from the war in Flanders. She dreamed of casting off her gown and racing naked through the gardens, pursued by her lover:
And he would stumble after, 
Bewildered by my laughter. 
I should see the sun flashing from his sword-hilt and the buckles on his shoes. 
I would choose 
To lead him in a maze along the patterned paths, 
A bright and laughing maze for my heavy-booted lover, 
Till he caught me in the shade, 
And the buttons of his waistcoat bruised my body as he clasped me, 
Aching, melting, unafraid. 
Together they could free each other from a life of closed patterns but alas, it was not meant to be:
The softness of my body will be guarded from embrace 
By each button, hook, and lace. 
For the man who should loose me is dead, 
Fighting with the Duke in Flanders, 
In a pattern called a war. 
Pattern is an act of repetition, symmetry, order and uniformity, not passion and spontaneity.  It permits few creative choices once the formula is set.  It is more often the work of anonymous artisans on assembly lines, or patient, long suffering women in huts rather than the work of creative geniuses who invent bold new styles.




Dhiagliev ballet costume

Persian rug, 19th century
So what the heck are patterns for, anyway?  They can be lovely but can they ever qualify as significant Art?

Our era prefers flamboyant celebrity artists to the steady, predictable hum of patterns by artisans.  Great artists are the ones with the courage to break the established patterns and run naked through that garden, right?

International superstars Tracey Emin (Royal Academy of Arts, CBE) and Miley Cyrus (VMA)

Despite this fact, let's consider whether patterns have anything of value left to offer us. Tolstoy, who was a more profound thinker than Lowell, wrote about the "chaste young girls" in Russian villages who labored for years making lace patterns:


As these girls worked over their looms, the rhythm of their patterns transported their thoughts to a faraway land:
lace makers in olden times... used to depict all their lives, all their dreams of happiness in the pattern. They dreamed in designs of all that was dear to them, wove all their pure, uncertain love into their lace.
There's no record of these young women tearing off their gowns and running naked through the garden, but that hardly diminishes the pathos of their situation, or makes the objects in which they invested their lives any less beautiful. Similarly, look at this ancient Egyptian illustration of the frankincense trees that grow in the legendary land of Punt (Ta netjera), a paradise rich with incense and gold:



The artisans detailed each and every leaf, despite the fact that each was identical to the one before. This was not an occasion for artistic economy, it was a time for being true to the pattern.  As the ancient craftsmen worked on long rows of leaves in the hot sun, I'm sure their minds drifted off to the land of Punt.
When I hold my love close, and her arms steal around me, I'm like a man transported to Punt...  the world suddenly bursts into flower. --  Egyptian love song, circa 1500 BCE
For viewers with patience and imagination, patterned objects can be rich with context. Poet Stephen Crane (1871-1900) offered a very different perspective than Amy Lowell on that "running-naked-through-gardens" business:
If I should cast off this tattered coat
And go free into the mighty sky;
If I should find nothing there
But a vast blue
Echoless, ignorant --
What then?
A century has almost passed since Amy Lowell asked her burning question, "Christ! What are patterns for?" Today, famed artist Tracey Emin shows us how artists have freed themselves from the constraints of pattern, and also of spelling:

Tracey Emin masterpiece, The Hole Room, 1999

Many in our generation of artists are puffing and panting, intellectually and morally exhausted from racing through the garden for the limits of art, looking for some new article of clothing to cast off. They've put so much distance between themselves and the tyranny of patterns that their work is devoid of structure. Its atoms are so diffuse that they no longer cohere in a way capable of sustaining life or heat. As Clement Greenberg wrote:
The nonrepresentational or abstract, if it is to have aesthetic validity, cannot be arbitrary and accidental, but must stem from obedience to some worthy constraint. 
Discernible pattern can be one of those worthy constraints.  The order created by patterns may seem superficial and restrictive, but it is also one of the brakes on the road to artistic entropy.  Rabindranath Tagore observed,
The freedom of the storm and the bondage of the roots join hands in the dance of swaying branches.
So what are patterns for? Patterns provide the bondage of the roots, and unless you have both the storm and the roots, there just ain't no dancing.

252 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 252 of 252
Sean Farrell said...

Seeing is so elemental, that it's possible to miss the connection between art, meditation and religion, which at their best, involve disinterested observation.

The concept of disinterested observation was of the scholastics (Aquinas) and earlier mystics and Greeks, whether or not it was identified as such. Likewise, there is intimacy between eastern religion and Catholicism in this regard. The refinement of the selfless and thoughtful virtues, generosity, kindness, mercy, etc. are seen as that which binds humanity in many religions. In Catholicism it's considered evidence of grace or the Trinity as it points to selfless giving. Such behaviors are often associated with training or habit, not seeing, but at their root they are observed, experienced or understood as sight, insight or sometimes an epiphany in its wider usage.

Some experience such as exquisite moments, or a great beauty, even as an otherness, but don't know how to categorize them and so having no context, these slip into memory, yet as something one never forgets. A young person may instinctively lunge after such an experience hoping to possess it. Or still, one may be moved to tears by seeing a person afflicted with polio drop a coin into a beggars jar after having just walked by indifferently. Great interest in such things has burned for ages.

The Enlightenment thinkers would have read Aquinas along with the classics, as did Jefferson. Around 1800, many were being influenced by eastern thought and it became part of the American romantic impulse. The salient connection between these different areas of thought, including art is in the refinement of disinterested observation.

The subjects of economics and semiotics also got their first systematic treatments in scholasticism. John Poinsot may be of interest to some here who have mentioned semiotics but may not be familiar with him.
http://www.staugustine.net/our-books/books/tractatus-de-signis/

Anonymous said...

Since I also couldn´t find The Mort Cinder Story, I opened a tumblr and posted it.

http://tramacio.tumblr.com/post/60754691874/for-research-purposes

http://tramacio.tumblr.com/post/60754923112/the-rest

WARNING: My poor attempts at drawing present in the blog, but not in the posts linked.

Aleš said...

António Araújo said: But suppose that this region lights up even more with a good caricature of the person X than with the actual person!! - then you can say that the caricature looks *more* like the person than the person itself.

I think it's called a peak shift, probably many animals that are taught to respond to specific visual images can show such behaviour. When an animal is taught to connect a certan image (rectangle) with food delivery, she will also learn what you called "enhancing the most salient features", she will learn the rule of those basic characteristics of an image (rectangularity of the rectangle). And when you give her an option to choose between an image, that got her food in the past and another image, that is an exaggerated version of that previous image (widened rectangle), she will spontaneously choose the latter (Ramachandran wrote about such experiemnts with rats). A biologist Nikolaas Tinbergen discovered that baby herring gulls in nature respond more vigorously to a yellow stick with three red spots than to their mother's yellow beak which has only one red spot (they beg for food by pecking on that red spot on the beak).

Ramachandran used these researches to provide a theory about how our brains might be wired up to find exeggarated features of caricatures or venus of Willendorf to seem to us as "more similar to the person than the person itself", as you said. (Ramachandran usually goes even further to use such theories to "explain" great art, but he never convinced me to be someone who understands art well enough). (I know you didn't want to talk about patterns of brain activity, Antonio, but I have nothing to add regarding geometry of face recognition)

António Araújo said...

Ales,

that's exactly the stuff I meant. :)

The references I couldn't recall by name up there where Ramachandran (I still can't remember what book or paper, though) and Semir Zeki's book "Inner vision".

I don't recall what the paper was on the caricatures and the monkeys, though, or who wrote it (none of the above, I think).

But yes, it really is just another example of how the brain has these good-enough strategies that are based not on exactly identifying the right amount of X but on getting X-ness: it's like it deals with inequalities (x>y) rather than equalities (x=y), loosely speaking. Not "my eggs are exactly this big and blue with red dots" but "my eggs are really BIG and really BLUE with these HUGE RED dots"!! :) It is probably an effect of economy in design and the way that neural networks work. Usually nature is accommodating enough but when it isn't you get stuff like cuckoos exploiting you, or researchers messing with your brain in a lab, or, caricatures that look more like Jack than Jack himself (and, forget about drawings, the really funny thing is that there are living people walking around that look more like Jack than Jack himself)

Apparently babies who are young enough will smile at faces, but also at a cardboard painted with two dots and a horizontal line (eyes and mouth). :) which tells us a lot about where all those visual symbols that kids use in drawing are coming from.

I recall(?) Ramachandran (or Zeki?) tried to state some basic principles about what made an artwork striking. The principles were not so novel, I think. They were stuff like "keep themes from competing with each other - the piece is either about form or color, for instance, not both", or "the mind likes to have to struggle to *find* a recognizable form amid noise" (those hidden patterns again). The interesting thing was how he connected those principles with neurological facts that can be tested, like, for instance, how indeed you will find that if you have competition between the pathways that handle color and those that handle form then your overall neural response to the artwork will get dampened. And you can test this in a lab with examples brought down to the essentials, and measure neural responses directly rather than have the subject talk about his interpretation of his response (which is always a mix of what he really feels and a whole lot of art theories that happen to be the rage in his day).


António Araújo said...

About the morals thing, I'll just say that I think Sean is right about the outrage being mostly fake.

I know that I wasn't a bit outraged when I went to see what all the nonsense was about regarding Miley's performance. I didn't register an outrage reaction in myself. None of my friends registered much of a reaction. I guess it was an ok-ish performance if you are into pop music. "Artistically", it was too random. It was a girl having a party, or at least performing one, instead of abstracting it into an artistic symbol of a party (bla,bla). As for the sexyness, Madonna went further before, much more self-consciously. Miley was more like an actual young girl partying, still very excited about how she now has a body and mind that screams of sex, and how that feels so novel and grand ,especially with money enough to party like crazy and do idiotic things that make you laugh a lot for no reason. The thing wears off in time (whether that is good or bad, who knows) but guess what - her target audience is around the same age as her, they are still high on how sexy they feel, and so on and so on (it isn't new, but it is new FOR THEM)- they don't give a crap about how artsy it is, they want to twerk in parties and perform outrageously for each other. For laughs and for the kicks. Just because we are older and we appreciate our sexuality in different ways (we do, right?riiiight...) doesn't mean we should be nasty to the younger kids sensibilities. I find that to be as unpolite as the reverse: younger kids calling an older guy a "dirty old man" (ohhh...gross!...) just because he isn't sexually dead at 50 and they opine he is a corpse whose only purpose should be to pay for their parties. I am getting too old to be one of the kids and still much too young to be called a dirty old men, but I can still recall being the former and I may survive to be the latter. I can relate to both.

As for this being a general decline in morals and civilization...yeah, sure. Except that the Alexander kept the Illiad under his pillow to recall how it was when men were men, but in the Illiad Homer already makes some disparaging remarks about how things in the times of Achilles were not as they used to be (something to the effect of how in the *real* age of heroes someone would throw much bigger rocks much further). Every generation thinks the new generation is declining in morals and in everything else. If it was true, it is a wonder we are still not down to amoebas.

If we're going to be crass about it, we might point out how the heroes of Homer were sheep-stealing butcher-rapists who whined like babies when things went sour (Hey Ajax, prima donna much?), Alexander was a drunken lout, the créme de la créme of educated Republican romans butchered each other for coin, and so many of our well-educated ancestors turned out to be genocidal freaks all the while preaching on the declining morals of their own kids. Given that: show me a sexy young girl twerking herself silly on TV and I'll show you someone who, historically speaking, isn't giving anyone any fucking trouble.

TLDR: Hey Miley, you're ok kid! (call me up, I'll date ya! :D)

António Araújo said...

On artistic hardons, and disinterested art, Mr Leonard Cohen will be now appropriated:

"Those were the reasons and that was New York,

we were running for the money and the flesh.

And that was called love for the workers in song

probably still is for those of them left."

There is however art that is disinterested. That is when you are giving a hardon to your own brain instead of trying to give it to someone else's. David sometimes reminds us of when we as young boys(speaking for the heterosexual males among us, let others speak for themselves) gained our first artistic interest by filling up sketchbooks with imagined women's bodies, like some caveman projecting a mammoth onto a wall in order to magic it onto his spear the next day. :)

Another found object, by Mr Leonard Cohen:

"Well never mind,
we are ugly but we have the music."


chris bennett said...

Richard wrote: Anyway, Miley, Emin, they give me boners, although not necessarily artsy boners, although again, those two things aren't terrible unalike, nor even mutually exclusive.

If I wanted an erection, the last place I'd visit was a work of art.

Anyone who has drawn from the naked model can witness this 'disinterested' or 'distancing' effect first hand. There is a moment when erotic concerns fall away and you are left with something else. Something that does not need desire to feed it.

Successfully making an object capable of instilling this feeling in those with the sensibility to not confuse it with substitute sensation is to produce an object we call a work of Art.

António Araújo said...

Chris,

"naked" model?!

Please, sir, the model is *nude* ;)

Joking aside, it is true. If you are really into drawing it is amazing how quickly you forget that the object in front of you is an actual woman who might elicit your desire in another context.

But I think the poster meant to include metaphorical erections too, and not only the sexual ones...

Still, I kinda get suspicious when art takes itself to be too "disenbodied", so to speak...(or rather the makers of art do)

kev ferrara said...

I think disinterestedness, in Kant's explication of it, was specifically with reference to the experience of the beautiful. And I think it is more in reference to a frame of mind of the audience than to a quality found in a work of art.

It is a mistake to assume that only a "cool" work of art can be beautiful. Or that an artist must be cool in order to make a beautiful work of art, or a work of art that contains beauty among other qualities.

A saving grace of the neuroaesthetic project is just how much they realize that art was there first.

Every one of Ramachandran's 8 rules of art can be found in art notes from teachings prior to abstract expressionism leading back into the middle ages. (Critics of the neuroaesthetics project are right to say that his list is woefully incomplete, but that doesn't mean he isn't on the right track. Maybe if he read Henri, Dunn, Lasar and others, things in the lab might speed along.)

Just to be more specific about some of the "features of art" recently mentioned here... "Peak Shift" can be found in discussions of what is now called silhouette value. And as was mentioned peak shift is highly related to "More like the person than the person," which goes back to "uncovering the essence or "true form" of the model and exaggerating it." Aside from this idea being a mainstay of art since the beginning, I think you can read about it in Henri and Dunn. The phrase "the piece is either about form or color, not both" is almost verbatim from Charles Lasar's book and also Dunn's notes (not AEITC, however). The idea that the mind finds pleasure in discovering the hidden goes back forever. etc.

kev ferrara said...

The most notable thing about Ramachandran's principles is just how dis-integrated they are as theory. And I think this is because he lacks an understanding of one of the foundation principles of art, which is unity of purpose.

David Apatoff said...

Stanley Workman-- Thanks for the King Tut mask. Another great pattern.

Sean Farrell-- I'm not sure why you say art, meditation and religion "at their best" involve disinterested observation. I think I understand some of the virtues of a disinterested perspective which you, Kev and others have described, but aren't there other virtues associated with the primacy and immediacy of experience, and the earthy, erotic and instinctual reactions that make up our repertoire? I am guessing that too much of either extreme is not ideal.

Anonymous-- I appreciate your following up with the Mort Cinder story. Very nicely done.

Antonio Araujo wrote: "Miley was more like an actual young girl partying, still very excited about how she now has a body and mind that screams of sex."

Really? To me she seemed like an insubstantial girl pathetically following a script provided by the older, predatory males surrounding her. How many "actual young girls" get genuine sexual pleasure from licking sledge hammers and climbing naked on a wrecking ball? How many 20 year old girls with "a body and a mind that screams of sex" scream to bend over for some old married stranger, twice their age, on a stage before millions of people? Go back and take a look at the awful way Cyrus spasmodically sticks her tongue out, and tell me she is not mimicking what she has been told is sexy.

If you give a woman some time to develop confidence and self-awareness, to experiment to understand what she really likes, it is possible she may end up actually enjoying licking sledge hammers. But for now, just keep in mind that Terry Richardson, the producer of Miley Cyrus' music video, apparently has a long history of preying on vulnerable girls the age of Miley Cyrus, ordering young models and actors to take off their clothes and pawing them as part of the "audition." Later when these young women develop a sense of self worth, they have the backbone to go back and accuse the old lecher. Funny, they never seem to say they were excited about partying with him because their 19 year old bodies "screamed sex."

kev ferrara said...

I understand some of the virtues of a disinterested perspective which you, Kev and others have described, but aren't there other virtues associated with the primacy and immediacy of experience, and the earthy, erotic and instinctual reactions that make up our repertoire?

This is sorta what I was trying to get at in my last post; that beauty does not require that the picture have a cool affect or mood, an Apollonian repose. There are all sorts of kinds of pictures, each to its own merits and with their own brand of beauty. I've seen paintings about baseball that were more beautiful than any picture of a rose I've ever seen. I've seen beautiful paintings of men in terror, capsized ships, swamps, and racing cars. And I've seen ugly paintings of beautiful girls, beaches, and meadows in springtime.

The crux of the matter is that the beauty of a great painting refers to the subject matter, yet must also transcend it. Thus beauty is irrespective of subject matter without being disassociated from it. Any subject matter can be treated in such a way as to be beautiful.

The great test to this theory is when the subject matter is something that is clearly emotionally cloying or overtly erotic or disgusting. And in those cases the issue is that it is difficult if not impossible for one to feel emotions because of the subject matter, and also feel aesthetic emotion due to the composition and aesthetic mood.

Let's take, for example, the following three subjects: A hot nude girl bending over and playing with a nipple, a crying child sitting alone on a dirty sidewalk with green, rotting teeth and a distended stomach, and a soldier whose organs are dripping from his wounded belly as he staggers across a battlefield.

Now for an artist to achieve a beautiful painting with any of the above three subjects would require that, in each case, the subject matter be transcended. This would take extraordinary talent and artistry given the "hot" nature of the scenarios. It also would be an absurd effort, where the very goal of the artist would be, in a sense, to destroy the surface level emotional impact of his subject matter to achieve beauty. And if the strategy is to obliterate the subject to such an extent that it ceases to have any effect whatsoever, why choose such subject matter in the first place?

It seems likely that such subjects which are simply too psychologically affecting to be made beautiful without complete obliteration of the subject are essentially pornographic. And a photograph of the subject, simply capturing the fact of the event, in each case, would be just as effective at causing the psycho-emotional response in the viewer as any painting of the subject. So why go through the trouble of making the painting?

Anyway, that's my take on the matter.








Anonymous said...

I just don't naturally respond to the religious impulse. But there may certainly be implications in this sense: our visual brains were built to respond to the world, and the world is fundamentally geometric, though again that geometry is hidden among the random variation. Perhaps we feel pleasure in playing hide and seek with that. And the elation of catching those glimpses of the hidden geometry may be called "divine", if anything can, in the sense that it goes deep into the nature of the world. Some will naturally take that divinity in some other sense, that involves religiosity - as for that I cannot speak since I am like a colorblind person in that respect: I hardly know what it means. :)


António,
Well, personally I have a very lucid concept of agency; I can take out the Roma Plastilina and sculpt a human figure or bust....but I have no concept of the clay forming a human figure or bust of its own accord; I hardly know what that means either.

António Araújo said...

etc, etc,

apparently, religiosity is related to dopamine levels in the brain. If that is true, I fear I am utterly dopamine starved :)

In truth, I gave religion a fair chance. When a couple of american mormon girls knocked on my door some years ago, I engaged in long sessions of religious discussion with them - I read underlined passages from their book and listened intently as they explained to me the mysteries of Joseph Smith's revelation and his hat and his golden plates, and I never once mentioned it all sounded like an alien abduction. :)
And when I looked (up! Those missionary girls were tall! :)) into the big bright blue eyes of that oh-so-American "sister" (a farmer's girl, I liked to imagine ) I almost felt converted. :)

But I couldn't. Not even the cute accent and the blue eyes looking at me from the heavens could prevent my dopamine levels from...er...shriveling back down as soon as the elevator door closed behind them. I'm a hopeless godless brute. :)

António Araújo said...

It must be taken into account that Ramachandran is working under the constraints of neurology.

His principles are not new - what is new is that he has connected them to neural correlates. Hence, he can test them under controlled circumstances.

The principles he chose are a subset of those principles that artists have longed know. Specifically, they are the subset that he found he could connect to those neural correlates.

So maybe the reason he doesn't include a unifying principle is not that he can't imagine that one might exist, but simply that he did not manage to find a reasonable one that he could translate into the language of neurology, at least for now.

Science only rarely works in great Systems. Usually it gets to them (if at all) only after going through more modest testable hypothesis. It doesn't mean that scientists don't speculate on general principles, and Ramachandran is hardly a shy guy (as his bold work with phantom limbs attests), but they will keep what is testable and what is free speculation in different containers.

António Araújo said...

>Really? To me she seemed like an insubstantial girl pathetically following a script provided

>by the older, predatory males surrounding her.

I don't know about the predatory males. I confess I have no idea who Terry Richardson is, so maybe you are right. I'm no expert in pop, or Miley C. so I'm just guessing here.

But I do know girls her age. I have seen them doing that and more in clubs and parties, with no "predatory males" running the show. They were showing off and having fun. And some of the showing off was "clumsy" - their own fantasies of what sexy is. So I think the thing with the tongue (kind of a fail, when done live) seemed to me more of a young girl's experiment than what I'd expect from a board of controlling males who know their market. If they gave her a script, they should fire the script writer. She says the video for "we can't stop" was a reenactement of actual parties, and I think it is credible. By comparison the thing with the wrecking ball was more the standard fare that clicks the right buttons for males (I'm not complaining either way!). Again that doesn't mean she is being controlled - it means someone knows his or her business. She is only being controlled if she is unwilling. If you have her mobile number, I'll ask her.:)

There was a time when Miley was being directed in detail to perform as a totally unrealistic caricature of a young girl for the fantasies of older people (called parents): I believe that was called Hanna Montana. :p

In those days did her handlers ever allow something as unpolished, random, or clumsy as her live performance with the tongue and the twerk? So, does clumsy smell of control or does it smell of her having a hand in her own performance, and experimenting?

Her looks right now are more "tank girl" than lolita. She has a sort of punk vibe, pop version - aggressive. Is that really what those "predatory males" would go for? What if that is just a girl actually dusting off with a vengeance the fake skin she wore for money all those years? "Predators" would go for Hannah Montana, not Tank Girl. The new Miley looks like she could kick a guy's ass.

> How many "actual young girls" >get genuine sexual pleasure from >licking sledge hammers and
>climbing naked on a wrecking ball?

I don't think my ceiling would hold the weight of a wrecking ball or I'd make a wager with you. :). Sexy young girls get pleasure for performing in ways that they know wreck the minds of guys. Haven't you noticed the epidemic of softporn selfies? Join facebook.

(continues)

António Araújo said...

>How many 20 year old girls with "a body and a mind that >screams of sex" scream to bend over
>for some old married stranger, twice their age,

'scuse me? *Old* married stranger? *36* years old is "old"? Looking like that?
Are you intimate with any current twenty-somethings? Yes, lots of 20 year olds will want to bend over for that. The guy is very attractive.

Ageism, much?

And...married? Were they having an affair? I thought they were *performing*. His wife didn't mind. His mother did, but that dear lady thought he looked great in that suit, so I question her judgment where her clearly adored son is concerned. :p

Should an actresses husband go crazy if he kisses an actor for the camera? How is bending over for a second in the general direction of Robin Thicke's crotch any different?

Also, thank you for informing me that I am after all a dirty *old* man already. :) I'll have you know however that even middle class, teacher-salaried, beat-up-old-car-owning, average-looking, unfamous, *old* (really?old? :)) "lecherous" men like me still get enough 20-something year olds to bend over for them, of their own free will. So I imagine that Robin Thicke certainly should have no difficulties in that respect, even without the help of a host of "predatory males" backstage.

By the way, the idea - that is death in bed - that a girl who bends over is being submissive is
a deep misunderstanding of human sexuality. As a friend of mine says, "I never feel more powerful than when I am on my knees". A girl can turn you into putty (ok, hard putty) when she uses her body like that. Watch the bonobo monkeys (who can teach us a lot about sex :)) and see how their *matriarchs* always initiate things: by slapping the males around and bending over for them (and then moving on to another male when that one is wrecked and dozing! I love bonobos :)).

(continues)

António Araújo said...

On the decline of morals thingy: My mother still remembers when Portugal was such a clean, orderly, catholic place. Women were not "exploited" like that. They didn't behave like "sluts".

What they did was, they went to church, they kept their mouth shut, they got beaten by their parents and later their husbands, often as not; and they got called sluts for dying their hair or using a skirt above the knee. I still remember my parents giving refuge to a "clumsy" married woman who kept "tripping down the stairs" and how her husband was outraged that my parents were keeping his property from him. Please, everyone, tell me more about how morality has been declining because young girls dress as they please and fuck who they want. Yes, they make some bad choices. That's because they make choices. Those choices may include blowing Mr Richardson, whoever he is, for a chance at a lottery ticket. It is their choice. They didn't use to have it.

If you are concerned with women's freedom, lower inequality and the rest will follow. The greatest oppression of women I see lately is working long shifts for peanuts or marrying rich guys for money - to get out of McDonalds or unemployment. But that looks so much cleaner since it involves matrimony, that beautiful institution built on ownership. I don't think Miley ever had to blow or marry some guy to get out of an unemployment line, do you? What people do for fame or higher perks doesn't really concern me - I see that as choice. The "choices" nearer the bottom, though, aren't really that much of a choice. I'm sure many a poor, pretty girl would blow Mr whoever for a chance at stardom in a way that can hardly be called choice, but I am not concerned if a well-to-do girl would do it just to be a star. So if you want to root out evil and protect young girls, search for foes among the clean, suited, conservative, married members of any random board of directors. I think on that much we agree. Once people have access to decent work, decent pay, proper healthcare, then if they choose to whore, marry, or perform for extra perks is really no concern of mine. Each of us knows what irks him/her or not.

David Apatoff said...

Kev Ferrara wrote: "The great test to this theory is when the subject matter is something that is clearly emotionally cloying or overtly erotic or disgusting."

Isn't there an opposite, equally "great test" of the theory of disinterestedness, one which comes closer to the commercial art frequently discussed in this venue? What happens when the subject matter of a picture is laundry detergent or toilet paper, rather than the types of subjects which make our nostrils flare and our pulse race? If we start out emotionally disinterested in the subject matter, with no passionate or intuitive responses to distract us, transcending that kind of subject matter should be pretty easy. Stripped of distracting content, commercial art can nevertheless be painted with beauty and design and all kinds of transcendent Apollonian qualities. How would Kant's scheme treat such art?

kev ferrara said...

Well, I think we can agree that a picture without "an interest" will be hard pressed to make something of itself. So I agree with you that a completely "cool" picture will be its own brand of bad art. A great many amateur landscapes are made without there being an actual subject and those aren't much to look at.

With respect to art that advertises products, the real issue is jus how forcefully the product inserts itself into the art.

In the instance of the John Gannam ad illustrations you posted a few months back, those works of art weren't compromised at all, in my estimation, by any association with commercial matter. St. Marty's blankets aren't exactly Tide boxes and so they were easily encorporated into Gannam's larger artistic idea; his scheme of beauty.

But put a tide box into the painting, and the tide box is going to be "hot" ... It is going to be hard to ignore. I'd be surprised to see a decent painting that; presents a loudly packaged product, succeeds as an independent work of art, and also pleased the client.

Antonio, in re-reading that Ramachandran paper over breakfast, I stand by what I said about his lack of understanding of art. I'm closer now to Aleš' take, that Ramachandran doesn't know enough about art to really nail neuroesthetics. Particularly telling is that he takes the modernist critics' view of things as gospel, which probably means that all of practical Aesthetics (compositional theory) prior to Adorno is absent fom his consideration. Confirmed by the fact that his bibliography only goes back to 1954. Which would also explain why he thinks that some of his 8 rules are without precedent in the literature of art.

There is also a very telling bit about the narrowness of his art education early on in the paper where Picasso is given credit for introducing the idea of "capturing the essence of a subject" into western art.

Tom said...

David
But isn't the very reason for making such art to move the viewer to some action, either creating a desire or fear in the viewer? Some how the product will enhance the personal self, the ego, or idea of oneself. Art with ulterior motives?

António Araújo said...

I won't contest about Ramachandran - I'm talking from the vaguest memory , so you are probably right. I didn't even recall he claimed originality over the principles themselves, only their interpretation in terms of the correlates. If he did, he was wrong.

Aleš said...

Kev ferrara said: Every one of Ramachandran's 8 rules of art can be found in art notes from teachings prior to abstract expressionism leading back into the middle ages.

I agree Kev, his rules are really not something new. Some of them are a basic content of design/drawing textbooks (contrast, metaphor, symetry, isolation) and I'm sure good artists were conciously aware of the others (orderliness, abhorrence of coincidences, I saw his peekaboo/perceptual problem solving rule mentioned in some of the artist's notes you probably posted here (Pyle or Cornwell maybe, Frazetta talked about it too)) and he himself is aware that some of his laws were already known (gestalt psychologists wrote about his law of grouping and art historians about orderliness). I do find his writings interesting tho, as I find interesting any information about human behaviour through biological perspective of laws and evolution. It just bothers me that I don't find it that useful (maybe I even shouldn't treat his work like that).

The reason why I find his "features of art" unsufficient is that even if you use all his rules you wouldn't necessarly get a moving, inspiring, meaningful content that we consider timeless qualities of art. For example, he talks about how Peak shift makes an anatomically absurd torso of Dancing stone nymph sculpture pleasing, but I think that's not the most important thing that makes it pleasing, there is also a hypnotic/airy poetification of the exaggerated curve/movement of that torso. The peak shift's exaggaration of X-ness (or essence) alone is an exaggaration of facts (he writes about Nixon's big nose and male/female body difference), so it first has to go through some artistic decision making/truth searching before it becomes moving and artistic (you probably know what I want to say better than I do). Maybe peak shift rule applies in terms of poetics too and I'm just being disoriented because he talks mostly about factological characteristics of an object and not our sensitive comprehension of it.
Another pleasing aspect of that dancing sculpture is a feeling of movement and since there are some articles out there that analysed our attitude towards dead stiffness of photograps ( for example frozen face effect - link) I wonder if an expression of dynamic stimuli should be somewhere on his "features of art" list? Also there are little, less important things like when he mentiones VanGogh as an impressionist that make me think about his precise understanding of art.

kev ferrara said...

I agree with you Aleš.

And that link to "frozen face" is also interesting. Thanks.

I think one of the things we find most attractive in people is their sense of life. The moving life of a person, in many ways, is the truth of them, the exterior of a person being both physiological evidence and symbolic representation of the interior state.

And this is exactly why a face-freezing photo isn't truthful, only factual. And without truth, as Keats told us, there is no beauty. Only the deadness of fact.

It boggles the mind that this understanding isn't part of everyone's education from first grade onward. It seems like such an important mental building block.

MORAN said...

Antonio I bet you believe the girls who tell you they had an orgasm.

António Araújo said...

Ales,

again my memory is faded but I think it was maybe in an interview with Mort Drucker(?) that someone was complaining how it was so hard to draw a likeness from a photo and he said something to the effect that "that is because you are working from one still. You need many. Ideally, if you could, you should be watching them *move*".

Of course then you have to translate the motion into a single still picture...

Anyway, probably not Drucker, but maybe someone here gets the reference.

António Araújo said...

MORAN, yes I do, and I also believe it when they say they didn't. why not? they believe it when I tell them I did. :)

I'll take a woman's word for what a woman feels. What do you do, sir? :)

António Araújo said...

It's complicated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE

Meaning, it is not well captured by pieties.

António Araújo said...

Twerking like it's 1910 :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=criEcLXgUQ0

MORAN said...

Antonio its easy to take advantage of girl students who are much younger and in lower jobs isn't it? That girl giving free blowjobs in public at the Slane concert is just doing what you said. Your afraid to chase mature women your own age who are your equals.

António Araújo said...

>Antonio its easy to take advantage >of girl students who are much >younger and in lower jobs isn't it?

Wow. You are one negative individual. None of that applies. I would have to be an idiot to chase students, out of all women available. Is that what you do, meet people at the job? Don't you ever go out and meet people you don't know? Talk to a stranger? Also, I don't pull out my wallet or my credentials when I meet a girl in a party, do you?

You are assuming a lot, and item by item you are wrong. It is unkind to assume the worse about people who you don't know and who aren't writing under assumed names.

I never attracted anyone by my "status" or "money" or "job" because I have lived my life with utter contempt for those things that maybe you think are so attractive. My car is old as shit, my (mortgaged) house is a mess and my clothes are cheap. I crap on power. If a woman falls for me it's because she likes me. If she likes anything else it is either my drawings or my books, 'cause I have nothing else material to offer, nor will ever.

Guess what, maybe they like me cause I treat them really well - which I do - and also I appreciate them for sexual beings. That doesn't mean I'm bragging about sexual performance, much less about my average looks, it means I really like a woman's body and traits and that includes all the funky details like her swollen face in the morning and her period and the sound and smell of her pissing and her moods and her occasional bouts with candida. Maybe it's because virtually all my ex-s are my close friends. Maybe it's because almost all my close friends are actual women that I can talk about them without confusing respect for a fear of sex.

which is what you are doing. Let me put it very simply. You are being prudish. You are trying to be respectful of women but you are merely mischaracterizing a woman's wants and her rather savage sexual nature.

Ok, not all women are like that. Some women think like you. Many do, in fact. Here's the thing: I don't pursue women who don't have a sexual nature that is compatible with mine. I don't chase or beg or cajole. I just look for the women that are like me: people with a healthy sex drive and no bullshit - catholic, prudish, whatever - on their minds. If I had to explain things to a woman like I am having to explain things to you, I would simply not go for that woman.

Not all people are the same, not all are like you. Some of us see sex in a different way. Some girls - which I know intimately and therefore can speak of - watch thicke's video and get horny and prance around mimicking the moves and having fun and feeling sexy. These are not stupid girls, nor are they socially submissive. They are smart girls. They are just not sexually repressed. They aren't prudes like you are. And I don't mean this as an insult. People are different.

(cont.)

António Araújo said...


I look at Miley's video and I think that maybe she is like that. Maybe I'm wrong. But unless we call her up, who are you to know? Perhaps she is a prude being exploited. Or perhaps she is like me. If I was a woman and had her body, hell yeah I'd be riding wrecking balls like a damned goddess and be payed for it. Some people's horror are another's fun.

Hey, Courtney Love agrees with me (now I have a scholar on my side :p):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/11/courtney-love-miley-cyrus-hillbilly_n_3908222.html?ref=topbar

That's exactly what I said: Miley has a weird (pop-ish )punk vibe. A punk may be sexually aggressive in a way that you interpret as being objectified but she (and I) interprets as liberating. Liberating from what? from the preconceptions of prudish people like you, who cannot imagine that a 30-something might go out on a date with a 20-something without having monetary control over her.

>That girl giving free blowjobs in >public at the Slane concert is >just doing what you said.

I don't even get this reference.

> Your afraid to chase mature women >your own age who are your equals.

Are you sure, Dr freud? My previous relations with girls my own age and who are my superiors in several ways (intellectually for one) would seem to disprove that, but since you don't care to know anything about me before throwing out the vilest things, why should you care?

Try not to be a hypocrite. As you got older, did you start finding 20-somethings unnatractive? Do you go out *only* with girls your age because you are afraid of rejection?

I am against ageism, which by the way is a form of discrimination, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate older women, it just means I don't place an arbitrary barrier between me and younger, legal age women who might find me interesting.

It also means I don't fear rejection. I never was a hunk, so I got used to it early. Here's the thing: if you like a girl, you let her know. I don't care how old or young she is, apart from the legal limit. If I like her, I let her know, and it is up to her. If she thinks I am too old or too young, or too thin, or too short, she will tell me.

It is for her to decide what is appropriate for her. Not you nor your ageist or sexual prejudices. Try that as a definition of respect for women.

MORAN said...

Antonio stick to riffing about art not telling us why your afraid to date women your age. Young girls impress easy because they haven't heard your tricks before. Women with your same experience know what you are.

António Araújo said...

MORAN,

I won't go on. You aren't even making an effort at an argument. You just keep making ugly assumptions about someone you don't know. That is a mark of the prejudiced and the closed-minded.

The fact that I don't conform to your provincial model can't even enter your mind. Try meeting people who are different from you. People who aren't careerists or capitalists or corporate climbers who impress girls with their cars and bank accounts. Go out and make an effort to meet people out of your usual crowd. Perhaps you'll finally meet women who don't feel a need to "fake their orgasms" (perhaps because their men don't go grimly at it as if they had a duty to reach a goal every time - if you sport-fans would drop the "getting to nth-base" analogies you'd do better - girls fake it because their are tired of you asking if they got there; when they do, you'll notice)

BTW, I'll "stick to" whatever I want, and it wasn't I who brought up the subject of sex. I didn't realize that some rule implied that we all had to agree with whatever slut-shaming ageist premise was offered.

And at least I offered more than your vile one-liner provocations.

Anonymous said...

The words to robin Thicke's song that Miley Cyrus danced to go

Yeah, I had a bitch, but she ain't bad as you
So hit me up when you passing through
I'll give you something big enough to tear your ass in two
Nothing like your last guy, he too square for you
He don't smack that ass and pull your hair like that
Do it like it hurt, like it hurt
What you don't like work?

Antonio says these are a sexy young girl's wants I hope someone tears his ass in two see how he likes it.

António Araújo said...

I suggest you have no sense of humour or notion of context and must be a real riot in bed.

António Araújo said...

I also suggest that equating passive anal sex with a well-endowed partner with a horrible experience like you are doing is a sign of sexual limitation on your part. And maybe a bit of homophobia.

Lots of people of both sexes enjoy passive anal. Lots of sexual partners will use aggressive expressions like that *playfully*. Something "big enough to break etc." doesn't mean it will be used to actually break anything. It means it is big enough to hurt you and pleasure you just as much as you may enjoy it. Slaps, dirty talk, a bit of pain, may be enjoyed by both partners. Is this news for anybody out there?

I suggest you try having that particular kind of sex (passive or active or both, your choice) with a partner who isn't a prude, and then report back on what kind of statements were vocalized in the heat of the moment. I'm sure it would all be appropriate for a church gathering.

Sean Farrell said...

David,
Yes, there are other experiences that make up what moves humans in art and I wasn't eliminating them, but are they disinterested?

It is very easy to overlook the religious component of seeing because it is so subtle. The Greeks were aware of it as logos, an experience of an otherness
and may have had a close association with the search for virtue. It was part of the Manichaeism of Augustine, but so also his conversion and the concept was a huge part of monasticism. In it there is an experience of beauty which comes upon one rather than as self engendered, in a way possibly similar to your experience in the cave.

So there is an experience of beauty which is not engendered by oneself, by one's desires and this is the disinterested part; it relates to beauty in which we connect to something else, but not by our own power. The concept is similar in visual art, poetry etc. where the art exudes a life of its own. Something unintended may be experienced from art, just as something unintended may be experienced in meditation, as per the Greeks or in prayer, an otherness.

I also think you are right on in your assessment of Miley, that she was coached to fascinate the prurient desires of a bored but addicted public.

Antonio, your explanation of your sex life expresses some serious limitations of what exactly is another adult. Your dopamine explanation is equally a blanket answer to all that calls to curiosity, such as synchronicity, precognitions of a friend about to call and numerous experiences of love such as that described at end of Camus' The Stranger, or what used to be called the Christian existential experience.

António Araújo said...

>adult

What is an adult? There are certainly "blurred lines" :). But as a society we decided to make up a magical arbitrary age after which people, for good or ill, are both free to act and responsible for their actions. Some will be too immature at forty and some very wise at 16, but still they are adult at that magical age of 18 (or whatever, depending on country or state). I don't fall for the magical thinking but I fail to see what other solution would work better. People have to be "adults" (i.e., free from both the protection and ownership of parents) at some point.

That doesn't mean that in your personal dealings with a particular person you shouldn't make up your own mind as to that person's maturity and act accordingly.

>dopamine

I didn't mean it as a blanket answer. The fact seems to be that people with more dopamine in their brains will tend to have greater "patternicity", i.e., both a greater tendency to spot true patterns and a greater tendency to fall for "false positives". Conversely, people with less dopamine will tend to miss more true patterns but also will be more resistant to false ones.

Among the "patterns" is stuff like dream precognition, conspiracy theories, etc, but also scientific theories.

Dopamine rich people in the extreme will see patterns in everything (apophenia) while the dopamine-starved might fall into "randomania" (explaining away as random every "coincidence", no matter how improbable)

In particular, dopamine-rich people will tend to be religious. God seems to be the ultimate pattern.

This is not explaining things away, it is finding a physical correlate for...personality types if you will. For example, you can do tests in separated twins to see if religiosity (or lack of it) has a genetic component (apparently it does).

It does not explain away religiosity, but it leads me to expect little from endless discussions between religious people and atheists. Some of us may change sides through argument, but it is a very, very long shot, and that makes me weary of such discussions unless I am really feeling like arguing a lot.

ps: Idealy we should compromise: give our "patternicity" free reign to speculate and then check it against facts and probabilities, except that in most cases probabilities are impossible to calculate and facts are unavailable.

In the practice of mathematics this is more feasible than elsewhere, since the second part is usually more doable. Hence, the usual procedure is to feel free to dream up lots of wild conjectures and then to proceed to destroy them one by one as fast as possible until we find a true one.

It is actually a sobering thing to notice how many conjectures (patterns) that look promising turn out to be bogus in this process. It leads me (unsurprisingly, being a dopamine-lean guy)to be weary in the cases I cannot check (i.e., when dealing with patterns "in the wild"). It might however lead a dopamine-fat person to instead focus on the fact that all those conjectures were a small number amid the immensity of possible ones and therefore conclude that valid patterns are indeed everywhere :). The problem here is that neither I nor the other person really know how many "reasonable conjectures" we are talking about, and so again we can't really calculate probabilities - so we fall again into reinforcing the preconceptions of our specific patternicity tendencies.

The better conclusion might be to identify ourselves as having a tendency to one error or the other and therefore making an effort to play devil's advocate with ourselves often. Or have someone else do it for us.

TLDR: A Mulder needs a Scully and vice-versa.

António Araújo said...

ps: I don't mean to take the dopamine thing too far either. I realize it is just *one* factor among others.

But it is a physical thing you can grab on to in order to come up with rather interesting though very tentative hypothesis.

Sean Farrell said...

Antonio,
I'm not referring to age as defining adulthood, but when one is called to love a wreck of a situation, even though it may not return much. When one is called to love and begins loving human brokenness, then there is certainly something of adulthood.

Put another way, loving a family member with Alzheimer's is more heroic and a greater sacrifice than accumulating knowledge and experiences agreeable to the senses. For such reasons, Eros doesn't match Agape in merit or beauty, though it can be overwhelming in its power to absorb one.

The Greeks contemplated art, beauty and the virtues and in so doing experienced the logos, that is, in contemplating the virtues, they experienced the subject itself as possessing a character, a disposition which may change with the subject, thus defining it as a certain kind of otherness. Plato was certainly after the virtues as a higher or perfect realm.

As the Greeks were introduced to the concept of perfect mercy, perfect forgiveness, perfect love, etc., it was agreeable to them because the perfect virtues were the characteristics belonging to one who described himself as the alpha and omega, the logos, language they understood. There is continuity in what the Ancient Greeks were doing and what the early monastic Greeks of the first century were doing as they were contemplating the same virtues as part of a greater beauty.

If this is acceptable, then it stands to reason that, at its best, what took place over the next 1,600 to 2,000 years was at least in continuity with the ancient Greeks in regards to the virtues. The stiff art of the icon which reflected the piety of the contemplatives, changed after the schism around 1,000 leading to developments in drawing painting, etc.

Anyone today, contemplating upon the virtues, will experience an interior beauty not unlike that which the Ancient Greeks experienced because it is the nature of the contemplation, the virtue itself. On this blog, some have expressed an interest in truth in art as merit and meaning. Though it might be through a lens of 19th century thinkers who denied the logos, it is certainly not without its meditative and thus religious origins even if no longer recognized.


Anonymous said...

Men like to date much younger girls because they are easier to take advantage of. Women your own age are too smart to be victims. We know its not fun joke to have your ass torn in two. Antonio is an asshole.

António Araújo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
António Araújo said...

Sean,

you left me with a lot of interesting points there to consider. With the earlier part I readily agree, the latter I am not sure I am parsing correctly. I need some time, and I am swamped in work. I'll try to get back to you in two or three days.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.



António Araújo said...

Anonymous,

very well, I apologize for breaking your sphincter in two. I zigged when I meant to zag.

Dude, you trolls are slippery and then accidents happen. Please get better soon.





Anonymous said...

Miley Cyrus says her naked wrecking ball was inspired by Sinead O'Conner. Sinead wrote back "I am extremely concerned for you that those around you have led you to believe, or encouraged you in your own belief, that it is in any way 'cool' to be naked and licking sledgehammers in your videos," Sinèad wrote. "It is in fact the case that you will obscure your talent by allowing yourself to be pimped, whether it's the music business or yourself doing the pimping."

"The music business doesn't give a sh*t about you, or any of us," she continues. "They will prostitute you for all you are worth, and cleverly make you think its what YOU wanted... and when you end up in rehab as a result of being prostituted, 'they' will be sunning themselves on their yachts in Antigua, which they bought by selling your body and you will find yourself very alone."

António Araújo said...

"(Sinnead) told the presenter, Gay Byrne, that had she not been a singer, she would have wished to have been a Catholic priest"

Yep she would (actually she has been ordained one. Sort of. It's complicated. See wikipedia). Her letter fully qualifies her for that. :p

Sinnead O'Connor is a deeply troubed Irish woman ("Irish" meaning hounded by Catholicism since birth - see James Joyce), very religious in her own way, and with a very complicated and unfortunate set of sexual issues.

Meaning, her view comes from a very particular position. That doesn't in any way make them invalid, except... where she makes assumptions about other peoples personalities *and* takes those assumptions for facts. Again, people with a conservative way of seeing sexuality seem unable to understand that *other people*, just as healthy or sick as them, may have other views and feelings about these things. I personally feel that sexually conservative people are scary crazy, but I understand that these are just feelings, and just a matter of personality (and culture, ok) and their views are just as "natural" for them as mine are for me. The reverse acknowledgement seems to come harder to the "prudes", who, from the height of their majority position, enjoy calling "perverts" names, having recently lost much of the power to burn them at the actual stake or "normalizing" them.

Anyway, I'll see your O'Connor and raise you an Amanda Palmer:

http://amandapalmer.tumblr.com/post/63011904833/oltosoc

an open letter to sinead o’connor, re: miley cyrus.
"
(...)
Here’s where I think you’re off target. Miley is, from what I can gather, in charge of her own show. She’s writing the plot and signing the checks, and although I think it’s tempting to imagine her in the board room of label assholes and management, I don’t think any of them masterminded her current plan to be a raging, naked, twerking sexpot. I think that’s All Miley All The Way. Now, would these men ARGUE with her when she comes into the room and throws down her treatment to hop up naked on the proverbial (and literal) wrecking ball? Of course not. Sex sells. We all know it. Miley knows it better than anyone: swinging naked on a big metal ball simply gets you more hits than swinging on a big metal ball wearing clothes. We’re mammals. LOOK BOOBS! And even more tantalizing: LOOK HANNAH MONTANA BOOBS! But none of this means that Miley is following anyone else’s script. In fact, what I see is Miley desperately trying to write her own script; truly trying to be taken seriously (even if its in a nakedly playful way) by the standards of her own peers.(...)
"

António Araújo said...

By the way, Miley's own rather angry response to Sinnead should provide more circumstancial evidence to how much she is being vetted by management. My guess, for whatever it's worth, would be...not so much.

Anonymous said...

Antonio

http://www.queerty.com/sinead-oconnor-now-accepting-applicants-for-anal-sex-20110830/

António Araújo said...

Heh, touché.

I fully accept that point (don't even have to follow the link, you are right).

I was coming back here right now because I wanted to say that I botched the part of the comment where I threw in Sinead in the bag of the "prudes". She's not one of those. In fact I take back all that I posted about Sinead, because I casually fell into the mistake that I was pointing out - that of trying to read too much into a person (even if I did place it as supposition) from my own limited viewpoint. I didn't have to do that to make my point, and I shouldn't have done it. It nagged me as soon as I posted it. She's too interesting a character for me to do that. She has her issues, but "prude" is simply the wrong word. I deserve a lashing for that just as much as she did for her own open letter, so I'm sorry.

I keep the rest, though: her reading of the matter comes from a very specific viewpoint, and she makes no allowance for the possibility that other people feel differently from her about these issues, naturally and without being coerced or being anti-feminist. There are many ways of *not* being a prude, and some of them don't deal well with each other.

Basically I think Amanda Palmer said exactly what I wanted to say, in the link I mentioned before, and far better than I apparently could.


Sarah Leon said...

Thanks for your writing. I treasure it

David Apatoff said...

Sarah Leon-- Thank you for your very kind comment. I truly appreciate it.

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 252 of 252   Newer› Newest»